Baptism
I'm curious to hear the thoughts of some of my fellow Wesleyan ministers on what Baptism is. So, please share. I'd like to hear straight shot answers, so it won't be a matter of getting the "Wesleyan position right," but of just seeing where we are.
I am curious because I recently encountered a gentleman in our church who is getting baptized who actually places more emphasis on baptism than I do. That is rare for the circles in which I run. His read of Scripture, which is just reading the text at face value, leads him to believe baptism is necessary for salvation. (The discussion we are having is quite old and centers around "baptismal regeneration." But that's a longer discussion.) This puts me in a strange place for two reasons. First, because baptism has such a close connection to salvation in the New Testament that it is hard, prima facie, to disagree--although I do. Second, because my disagreement brings out the Lutheran in me: if baptism were necessary for salvation, that would make baptism the dreaded "work." If baptism is necessary, then crucifixion and resurrection are not enough. I rarely find myself compelled to be Lutheran, but here the resources of a rigorous theology of the cross come to my aid. So, I find myself emphasizing the communal aspect of baptism; the means of grace it is; its being a sacrament--and he still wants it more emphasized. And I am thrilled! I find myself planning for a baptism on Sept. 17 and he asks, "What if that day doesn't come?" I love it! Is there a regeneration of desire and interest in baptism?? Let's hope!
So...what's baptism in your opinion?
Btw, I found something that I am REALLY good at: Getting low electricity bills. My last bill? $15.
I am curious because I recently encountered a gentleman in our church who is getting baptized who actually places more emphasis on baptism than I do. That is rare for the circles in which I run. His read of Scripture, which is just reading the text at face value, leads him to believe baptism is necessary for salvation. (The discussion we are having is quite old and centers around "baptismal regeneration." But that's a longer discussion.) This puts me in a strange place for two reasons. First, because baptism has such a close connection to salvation in the New Testament that it is hard, prima facie, to disagree--although I do. Second, because my disagreement brings out the Lutheran in me: if baptism were necessary for salvation, that would make baptism the dreaded "work." If baptism is necessary, then crucifixion and resurrection are not enough. I rarely find myself compelled to be Lutheran, but here the resources of a rigorous theology of the cross come to my aid. So, I find myself emphasizing the communal aspect of baptism; the means of grace it is; its being a sacrament--and he still wants it more emphasized. And I am thrilled! I find myself planning for a baptism on Sept. 17 and he asks, "What if that day doesn't come?" I love it! Is there a regeneration of desire and interest in baptism?? Let's hope!
So...what's baptism in your opinion?
Btw, I found something that I am REALLY good at: Getting low electricity bills. My last bill? $15.
posted by Aaron Perry at
11:46 AM
14 Comments:
in my laywoman's terms: baptism= a special sacred anticipated perk experience with God after initially salvation.
mostly, i'm just commenting b/c i'm impressed with your electric bill. wow.
This is a bit of your specific question but in my recent thinking about the more common progressive experiance of salvation people seem to experiance (not to say there is no crisis but that for many people it's not quite as simple as pagan, alter call, saint any more) and reading Drury's "There Is No I In Church" I think Baptism plays a deeper role in our public proclimation of salvation then I used to. I'm honestly not sure when I was saved but I know exactly when i was baptised.
You have made a great post. Thanks for sharing it. Have you considered the eschatological significance of the sacraments, especially baptism. Schweitzer does an interesting job of presenting some challenging ideas on this in "The Mysticism of Paul."
hi kevin, i can't say i have considered the eschatological significance of the sacraments, although i suppose the sealing by the laying on of hands after baptism might be an appropriate line of consideration. can you say more?
jo: i know, i know. $15. and that was with a window AC unit for a few days.
aj: that is a great testimony. i really think you have nailed part of the assurance aspect of baptism.
I think baptism is necessary for salvation in the sense that we must be dead to self and alive in the resurrection of Christ to be saved
Hopefully, very soon after new life has been entered into, the believer can take part in the public showing we call baptism (which is kind of like a funeral and a birthday rolled into one).
I'd be really concerned about the reality of a person's salvation if their first post-conversion decision was "i don't want to be baptized physically". It'd make me think they didn't really understand the whole 'dead to self' idea or the 'Jesus is now my King' idea.
In other words, I'm happier to find a person that thinks the physical act of baptism is a necessity for salvation than to find someone who thinks it's an option for believers.
I believe the symbolism in Baptism is manifold.
- I believe it is an outward sign of an inward reality. It is a communal act reflecting that someone is now a follower of Christ.
-I bleieve through baptism, one identifies themselves with the death, burial and resurrection of Christ.
-I believe Baptism is symbolic of death to self and alive in Christ.
Cheers!
Horner I hear your last question. I think there is a certian cultural irrelevance but to be honest that's one of the things I like the most. I was raised in a chruch that was nothing like most christians through time, the praying was different, the worship was different, everything was different. However I walked into a dirty river with a spiritual leader and he pushed me under int he name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. That gives me a historical link to the first christians, the disciples, and most of the church throught history. I love that. It's one of the few reasons I wish Wesleyans used real wine in communion. I wonder if we made a mistake when we moved baptisim into the church. I hear in india some churches do it in the cattle troughs in the town square as a sighn of leaving hinduism and embracing christ publicly. Of course I have also heard that there are alligators in the NYC sewers.
interesting Tim. is what you just said above what MOST (minus the Missouri Synods) Lutheran denominations believe about baptism?
Just curious, as an entire side of my family line has been Lutheran for centuries.
I don't have much to add other than that this is a great discussion. I think baptism is under-emphasised in our churches today; like it is an option. At least in our culture. I know in Japan, though, that baptism is a pretty huge deal; people talk more about "getting baptised" than "getting saved". I think it's because in that culture to publicly proclaim your faith that way is to become identified with one group and in a sense cut ties with another... which is very significant in a group-oriented culture. Maybe if we weren't so individualistic in the West we would understand the sacraments more fully.
Did you make it through Saturday?
Thanks for the visit.
Thanks for the answer Tim. That's what I was curious about.
Can I be a fly in the ointment?
Some Wesleyan pastors who responded to AP's question sound Lutheran. Others sound Southern Baptist. Others switch between paragraphs. None, so far as I can tell, sound terribly Wesleyan. Why?
CG
Robin, i liked your comment. I remember when my parents were missionaries to HongKong and China. The Chinese also were ready and sooo keen on getting baptized. They risked getting busted by police to do it..all for the sake of saying...I am Christ's, I am a Christian..I'm a new creation!!
I'm not good at explaining my reasons... but it kind of bothers me to hear ..."is it culturally relevant to baptize".. I'm tired of the "culturally relevent" card...no offense to anyone..of course...
oh and I liked reading all the comments...good post AP!!
CG: I expect because it is not a stressed practice in The Wesleyan Church, nor can I remember a theology of baptism being covered in pastoral ministry classes--which is not to say that it wasn't...I just can't remember. I, of course!, am a good Wesleyan in terms of baptism, but I needed to flesh out to some of the Sanhedrin (DBMD) who contended I wasn't that I was. Perhaps this isn't a new phenomenon.
One of hte side benefits of seminary, I must say, has been coming to appreciate hte tradition in which I find myself. It rather resonates with me. And it also lets me bring back to the fold those who have wandered away...or, at least, be part of the process of bringing back to the Wesleyan fold those who have become disillusioned or, shall we say, crusty! :D
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