Theology, Philosophy, or Both? Or, Jim Rome the Philosopher
The following is a (too) long summary and (too) short review of John Caputo's Philosophy and Theology. Give it a quick read. Then I'd appreciate your opinion on the relationship Caputo addresses--at least for the sake of a tally.
Caputo asks Nietzsche's existential question, "Does anyone know we are here?" Does the universe care or is it cold? In asking that question one is already en route to asking the question in the title: Does theology, philosophy, or some combination find the answer?
Caputo answers this question by telling (quite quickly, the book is just 84 pgs, counting the appendix!) the story of philosophy and theology and says that the most important word is 'and.' Philosophy and theology. The premodern hegemony of faith, religion, theology over philosophy is what led to modernity, he says, which flipped the situation on its head. Philosophy, reason, became the go-to-guy in the deepest questions of life. So, Descartes doubts everything that can be doubted. And comes up with the belief that he can doubt everything except that he is doubting. That he cannot deny. And begins to work his way up, pulling himself up from his reason-able bootstraps.
This leads to philosophy, reason, being the "intellectual police." Kant set up a wall between philosophy and religion, limiting religion to the unknowable. We can have an idea that there is something beyond the wall, but we can't be sure what it is. The best notion of the being beyond the wall we've got is ethics (which is why Kant is famous for the moral argument for God's existence). But, and this is remarkable, as the intellectual police, philosophy has removed itself from the game. It's like the umpire in baseball that cannot play. In the absence of philosophy, the empiral sciences--they deal with the world we can know, after all! (according to Kant)--take over. We are still in this phase in education settings.
Against Kant, who emphasized the universal nature of ethics ("Only consider a moral rule that which you can consider a moral rule for all, everywhere, at all times"), Hegel continued in the modern period by asserting the historical nature of truth. The "Spirit" was drawing all things to universal end through history. In effect, Hegel tore down (at least wanted to; Larry Wood would emphatically say he succeeded, eh Nate?) the wall that Kant had built. God was not relegated to the unknowable, but was in the very world we feel, sense, measure, examine historically, etc. (Process theology emerges from Hegel.) But notice that reason is still king here. (So, Hegel delves into mathematics (!) in his Phenomenology of Spirit.) This brings us to Caputo's two benefits of the Enlightenment: 1. The emphasis that we should highlight what we do have in common (reason-wise) and not revelation given to some but not to others; 2. The reminder that God has not given only revelation to believers, but "a head on their shoulders and eyes in that head" (slight paraphrase, 36).
But Caputo says that reason overstepped its bounds. Enter Kierkegaard: He criticized Hegel's "system" and emphasized the transcendence of God. Philosophy is not the Saviour of God, says Kierkegaard. God did not save the world in a 19th c. German philosopher, but a 1st c. Jew. (This leads to the neo-orthodoxy of Karl Barth.) The table is now set for the postmodern agenda: Both Theology and Philosophy have had their respective kick at the can; their chance at being in charge. Both have failed. Philosophy's latest turn has even removed itself from the game. The sciences have taken over...and the deepest questions begin to be treated as fairly shallow: Everything is biology, or neurology, or physics, or chemistry.
Caputo then lists three turns which completed the postmodern table set (he admits to oversimplifying, here): First, there is the hermeneutical turn. Basically, it means you have to have an "angle." When you go to speak or to find something out or to live, you realize that you are already there. You already, in the words of Jime Rome, "have a take." This "take" is necessary to seeing the game, at all. It's like a seat in an arena: you have to sit in that seat and not another, but without it you don't have access to watch the Oilers lose at all. Second, there is the linguistic turn. Whenever Descartes tried to doubt everything he was already writing. He was already thinking linguistically--hence, conditioned and shaped. This means that what you say, or think, is already partially formed before you think it. If you ever listen to Jim Rome, some of the best callers merely parrot, but parrot well, a combination of smart sports writers. Of course, they think these thoughts are their own--and in a way they are. These callers--who both parrot and are entertaing--in the words of Jime Rome, "Don't suck." The hermeneutical turn and the linguistic turn can be summed up by Jim Rome's adage: "Have a take and don't suck."
This brings us to the last turn, the "revolutionary turn" by Thomas Kuhn in science. He says that science doesn't simply add knowledge to knowledge piecemeal, but the best advances have brought complete paradigm shifts--the earth around the sun (Copernicus), the bendability of space and time (Einstein), etc. Science, in other words, does not start at zero and build up, it has a world in which it lives. Science itself already "has a take" and tries "not to suck."
Some might question whether this leaves us without truth. It does not. It leaves us without certainty. To say that I am not certain does not mean that there is no truth. It means that the truth is not mine to possess and hold; it lays hold of me; it pushes against me. It means that we have good reasons for believing scientific models, philosophy, history, in God, etc. but we are not absolutely positive. But notice that science, history, philosophy, God are all combined here. One does not reign. They are all "language games." They are all paradigms--and they all overlap to a degree (familial relations). This means that interpretation is the key. Because all of these paradigms have perspectives, they all have something to say. They all see the world as something. Neither theology nor philosophy (and thereby science) have complete access to whatever they are studying--they don't see "all the way down." So it is both seeing is believing--we all have heads and eyes--and believing is seeing--we all have presuppositions which let us think and see in the first place. Yet it is mostly "What to believe if we are to see."
So, philosophy and theology are not opposites, or enemies, but two kinds of faith--two kinds of believing trying to see. They are two ways of finding answers to the question, "Does anyone know we are here?"
To illustrate this last point Caputo compares Augustine and Derrida and their respective works, Confessions and Circumfession. Augustine and Derrida have two different kinds of faith. What they did not see is what drove them on. So, Augustine says that our hearts are restless until they rest in God. And Derrida prays, but also rightly passes for an atheist. Where Augustine saw light and had faith, Derrida is overtaken by too many claims to light and acknowledges the darkness. But this darkness, says Caputo, does not negate his faith. Rather, it makes the light all the brighter. So as not to lose the point, remember that they are both asking the question, "Does anyone know we are here?" Derrida's lack of definitive answer ("I rightly pass for an atheist") is not, however, cynicism, but simply his place in history; his form of faith is faith nonetheless. So, both Augustine and Derrida have the question of God: they do not stay with Nietzsche's cynical question ("Does anyone know we are here?"), though we all return there from time to time. Rather Caputo says that central to both forms of faith is the question, "What do I love when I love my God?" This question holds the passion that the first existential question promises. Caputo concludes that philosophy and theology are both ways to nurture the passion of life--initially and subsequently of wonder ("Does anyone...?"), but finally and ultimately of love ("What do I love when I love my God?").
I loved this book. My only critique is that Caputo is more philosopher than theologian and I am more theologian than philosopher. (This relationship is something he mentions in the book: Believing thinker/Thinking believer; Philosophical theology/Thelogical philosophy; etc.) So, when Caputo writes about God as the one before every knee will bow (Isa. 45:23), I want to remind him of the biblical story and the Philippian hymn that puts every knee bowing at the name of Jesus (Php. 2:10-11). God is not afar; he is revealed. But, of course, this is not a stunning critique--nor is it meant to be--because the worship of Christ used philosophy to explicate its theology in the Nicene-Constantinople and Chalcedonian Creeds (and at Ephesus and in syonds...). And, I think, this is another illustration for Caputo and the inevitably tense, but mutual relationship of philosophy and theology, of loving God: God's work in Jesus Christ elicits and inspires our thoughtful worship.
So.... Theology? Philosophy? Both? Does Jim Rome capture the relationship accurately? ;)
Caputo asks Nietzsche's existential question, "Does anyone know we are here?" Does the universe care or is it cold? In asking that question one is already en route to asking the question in the title: Does theology, philosophy, or some combination find the answer?
Caputo answers this question by telling (quite quickly, the book is just 84 pgs, counting the appendix!) the story of philosophy and theology and says that the most important word is 'and.' Philosophy and theology. The premodern hegemony of faith, religion, theology over philosophy is what led to modernity, he says, which flipped the situation on its head. Philosophy, reason, became the go-to-guy in the deepest questions of life. So, Descartes doubts everything that can be doubted. And comes up with the belief that he can doubt everything except that he is doubting. That he cannot deny. And begins to work his way up, pulling himself up from his reason-able bootstraps.
This leads to philosophy, reason, being the "intellectual police." Kant set up a wall between philosophy and religion, limiting religion to the unknowable. We can have an idea that there is something beyond the wall, but we can't be sure what it is. The best notion of the being beyond the wall we've got is ethics (which is why Kant is famous for the moral argument for God's existence). But, and this is remarkable, as the intellectual police, philosophy has removed itself from the game. It's like the umpire in baseball that cannot play. In the absence of philosophy, the empiral sciences--they deal with the world we can know, after all! (according to Kant)--take over. We are still in this phase in education settings.
Against Kant, who emphasized the universal nature of ethics ("Only consider a moral rule that which you can consider a moral rule for all, everywhere, at all times"), Hegel continued in the modern period by asserting the historical nature of truth. The "Spirit" was drawing all things to universal end through history. In effect, Hegel tore down (at least wanted to; Larry Wood would emphatically say he succeeded, eh Nate?) the wall that Kant had built. God was not relegated to the unknowable, but was in the very world we feel, sense, measure, examine historically, etc. (Process theology emerges from Hegel.) But notice that reason is still king here. (So, Hegel delves into mathematics (!) in his Phenomenology of Spirit.) This brings us to Caputo's two benefits of the Enlightenment: 1. The emphasis that we should highlight what we do have in common (reason-wise) and not revelation given to some but not to others; 2. The reminder that God has not given only revelation to believers, but "a head on their shoulders and eyes in that head" (slight paraphrase, 36).
But Caputo says that reason overstepped its bounds. Enter Kierkegaard: He criticized Hegel's "system" and emphasized the transcendence of God. Philosophy is not the Saviour of God, says Kierkegaard. God did not save the world in a 19th c. German philosopher, but a 1st c. Jew. (This leads to the neo-orthodoxy of Karl Barth.) The table is now set for the postmodern agenda: Both Theology and Philosophy have had their respective kick at the can; their chance at being in charge. Both have failed. Philosophy's latest turn has even removed itself from the game. The sciences have taken over...and the deepest questions begin to be treated as fairly shallow: Everything is biology, or neurology, or physics, or chemistry.
Caputo then lists three turns which completed the postmodern table set (he admits to oversimplifying, here): First, there is the hermeneutical turn. Basically, it means you have to have an "angle." When you go to speak or to find something out or to live, you realize that you are already there. You already, in the words of Jime Rome, "have a take." This "take" is necessary to seeing the game, at all. It's like a seat in an arena: you have to sit in that seat and not another, but without it you don't have access to watch the Oilers lose at all. Second, there is the linguistic turn. Whenever Descartes tried to doubt everything he was already writing. He was already thinking linguistically--hence, conditioned and shaped. This means that what you say, or think, is already partially formed before you think it. If you ever listen to Jim Rome, some of the best callers merely parrot, but parrot well, a combination of smart sports writers. Of course, they think these thoughts are their own--and in a way they are. These callers--who both parrot and are entertaing--in the words of Jime Rome, "Don't suck." The hermeneutical turn and the linguistic turn can be summed up by Jim Rome's adage: "Have a take and don't suck."
This brings us to the last turn, the "revolutionary turn" by Thomas Kuhn in science. He says that science doesn't simply add knowledge to knowledge piecemeal, but the best advances have brought complete paradigm shifts--the earth around the sun (Copernicus), the bendability of space and time (Einstein), etc. Science, in other words, does not start at zero and build up, it has a world in which it lives. Science itself already "has a take" and tries "not to suck."
Some might question whether this leaves us without truth. It does not. It leaves us without certainty. To say that I am not certain does not mean that there is no truth. It means that the truth is not mine to possess and hold; it lays hold of me; it pushes against me. It means that we have good reasons for believing scientific models, philosophy, history, in God, etc. but we are not absolutely positive. But notice that science, history, philosophy, God are all combined here. One does not reign. They are all "language games." They are all paradigms--and they all overlap to a degree (familial relations). This means that interpretation is the key. Because all of these paradigms have perspectives, they all have something to say. They all see the world as something. Neither theology nor philosophy (and thereby science) have complete access to whatever they are studying--they don't see "all the way down." So it is both seeing is believing--we all have heads and eyes--and believing is seeing--we all have presuppositions which let us think and see in the first place. Yet it is mostly "What to believe if we are to see."
So, philosophy and theology are not opposites, or enemies, but two kinds of faith--two kinds of believing trying to see. They are two ways of finding answers to the question, "Does anyone know we are here?"
To illustrate this last point Caputo compares Augustine and Derrida and their respective works, Confessions and Circumfession. Augustine and Derrida have two different kinds of faith. What they did not see is what drove them on. So, Augustine says that our hearts are restless until they rest in God. And Derrida prays, but also rightly passes for an atheist. Where Augustine saw light and had faith, Derrida is overtaken by too many claims to light and acknowledges the darkness. But this darkness, says Caputo, does not negate his faith. Rather, it makes the light all the brighter. So as not to lose the point, remember that they are both asking the question, "Does anyone know we are here?" Derrida's lack of definitive answer ("I rightly pass for an atheist") is not, however, cynicism, but simply his place in history; his form of faith is faith nonetheless. So, both Augustine and Derrida have the question of God: they do not stay with Nietzsche's cynical question ("Does anyone know we are here?"), though we all return there from time to time. Rather Caputo says that central to both forms of faith is the question, "What do I love when I love my God?" This question holds the passion that the first existential question promises. Caputo concludes that philosophy and theology are both ways to nurture the passion of life--initially and subsequently of wonder ("Does anyone...?"), but finally and ultimately of love ("What do I love when I love my God?").
I loved this book. My only critique is that Caputo is more philosopher than theologian and I am more theologian than philosopher. (This relationship is something he mentions in the book: Believing thinker/Thinking believer; Philosophical theology/Thelogical philosophy; etc.) So, when Caputo writes about God as the one before every knee will bow (Isa. 45:23), I want to remind him of the biblical story and the Philippian hymn that puts every knee bowing at the name of Jesus (Php. 2:10-11). God is not afar; he is revealed. But, of course, this is not a stunning critique--nor is it meant to be--because the worship of Christ used philosophy to explicate its theology in the Nicene-Constantinople and Chalcedonian Creeds (and at Ephesus and in syonds...). And, I think, this is another illustration for Caputo and the inevitably tense, but mutual relationship of philosophy and theology, of loving God: God's work in Jesus Christ elicits and inspires our thoughtful worship.
So.... Theology? Philosophy? Both? Does Jim Rome capture the relationship accurately? ;)
18 Comments:
"My take" is Caputo & you hit it bang on when you said, "...truth is not mine to possess and hold; it lays hold of me; it pushes against me." I LOVE IT.
I didn't appreciate the comment about the Oil, it still cuts deep.
For a moment I thought I was reading Dr. Wood's book again. Either that, or I was in a summary of many first-year ATS courses. You are just an amazing thinker and expresser of your thoughts, AP.
In response to your question, I'm afraid I disagree that philosophy and theology are necessarily "kinds of faith." Admittedly, it takes faith to believe in anything, whether that "anything" be philosophical or theological. However, any theologian or philosopher who cannot find themselves at some point of certainty must exercise that faith.
I would say, then, that theology and philosophy are matched by faith as a separate aspect to answering the question "Does anyone know we're here?" Faith is what gives certainty in our quest for philosophical or theological truth.
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Tim, if I may be so bold (and since it's my blog, I may!), haven't you just drawn the line between theology and philosophy you don't want to be drawn? If *Christian practices* form *intellectual activity,* then isn't philosophy subjugated to the realm of the intellect? Further, if, as you rightly say, philosophy is a way of living (and intellectual activity is therefore not a separation from practice), then would a philosophical life be lived Christianly, without being *theological* (in whatever specific form--Muslim, Jewish, Christian, Hindi, etc.)? Of course, your affinity for neo-orthodoxy will likely lead you to respond, "It's all theological," which I cannot deny on one level. But on another this strikes me as unhelpful. It seems to me that philosophy can pursue the God-pleasing life without being theological (except in some abstract sense--'everything is theology').
Now it seems you might be caught between a rock and a hard place (*might* be...you can likely wiggle your way out). If philosophy serves theology--intellectual activity being formed by Christian practice--then they are separate (which you don't want to do). If both are ways of life, however (which is Caputo's point, I think, in calling them both kinds of faith), then neither serves the other, but both aid one another. Or, both philosophy and Christian, Muslim, etc. theology are in the service of Theology. (And by Theology, I mean the 'theological' in the phrase, "Everything is theological."
Thanks, Tim.
When you write, "Also, I do think theology and philosophy are ways of life and these ways of life are geared to the intellect or life of contemplation, if you will," it seems that you are summing Caputo's argument. Both are ways of life in engaging the question, "Does anyone know we are here?" Have I got you right?
However, you mentioned that you want philosophy to be a handmaiden to theology. This separates them necessarily (which you didn't want to do too neatly--rightly, I think). You also want to maintain that philosophy or natural theology is not Christian (or another specific) theology. So, the separation is becoming a little more apparent.
This is where I think you fall between the rock and the hard place: If philosophy serves theology, then they are separate. However, if both are ways of life geared to the intellect then one cannot serve the other. At least, I wouldn't know what it meant for one way of life to serve another way of life. If you fold them together, making them one aspect of the same life, then I think you have made philosophy to be less than a way of life--a way, and only a way, of reasoning. So, if you want philosophy to be a way of life, then it must be able to stand on its own.
AP has asked me to join in. Not sure why. I think I agree with Tim. Sorry AP.
I think Caputo et. al. are irrationalists. That is, they are fundamentally against reason. When this is applied to theology, we end up with a reductionistic negative theology or a positivistic "it just is" theology (think Derrida for the former and Milbank and co for the latter).
But orthodox theology can be neither reductionistic (because it claims to speak truthfully about God) or positivistic (because it claims to be able to communicate to people who do not hold to its view). It is therefore implicitly founded on (oh no, did I actually say that?) some kind of philosophical realism that gives reason (and therefore philosophy) freer reign than what I understand Caputo's narrative to do. (I am running solely on AP's take (which does not suck.))
Could be wrong... Regularly am.... Back to reading galleys.
SGFMB
I think we are making progress! Thanks for sticking with me.
I am still not sure how a way of life *serves* another (without it being reciprocal). The example you list--that of being a husband and being a Christian, I think is helpful to emphasize the partner-relationship of ways of life. Certainly how you engage in being a Christian is conditioned by your being a husband. You live a Christian way of life differently than I do. However, I think it is equally true to say that how you engage in being a husband is conditioned by your being a Christian. Your husband practices shape your Christianity; your Christian practices shape your husbandry. These ways of life have a mutual relationship. I suppose I could say they both serve each other--which sounds like partnering, which is Caputo's argument.
Also, urging reason to admit what it can and cannot say, you are agreeing with Caputo. Only he wants to expand this statement to include both reason and theology. Neither get the job completely done. So, neither philosophy nor theology completely reach the "True, Beautiful, and the Good."
Now I think there is some room to delineate between levels of theology. First, Theology. This is the assumption, I think, of all religious claims. Capital 'T' Theology is the goal of philosophy and theology. Small 't' theology is the specific work of one, and any, specific religion. No theology is a Theology. No theology sees "all the way down." What about the theology that makes Theological truth claims (like Christianity)? Can Christian theologians say that in doing Christian theology they are doing Theology? I think yes. (And this is why I think the statement, "Everything is theological" is true...though I would say Theological.) However, can Christianity say that Christian theology and only Christian theology is doing Theology? I think no. Let me beg off the hard question of Islam for the moment (Does Islamic theology do Theology?), and ask, "Can philosophy do Theology?" I think it can (and I think Caputo thinks it can). But the difference between this is like the difference between Descartes and Anselm (a helpful illustration Caputo uses): Anselm's ontological argument is a prayer; Descartes' ontological argument tries to be pre-Theological. If philosophy does Theology, it is not on its own. It does so via revelation.
This relates to the Christian and egg question from a few posts ago. I think that RO affirms that theology is only Theology if it is Christian. Or, philosophy only does Theology if it is Christian. (The irony is their acceptance of other religions. Dogmatic within a tradition; inclusive without!)
Are we getting somewhere? If Some Guy is reading, how does this relate to Kraemer's radical difference?
Some Guy, I think this is where Caputo and Milbank split company.
Actually, I think reading Caputo helped me to formulate my concern with RO...and what Jamie Smith has been trying to tell me via his Reformed roots. Reason can stand on its own--but it stands on something. Likewise, theology stands on its own, it just stands on something. If you have Smith's book, check p. 177 and the chart. The 'something' they stand on is a Theology and a subsequent Philosophy. (Although, looking at the chart, Caputo may say that Smith has fallen prey to philosophy being the intellectual police--so, he lists math, law, ethics, theology (specific theologies) as disciplines, but he lists philosophy as the **methodology** of these disciplines. (I may be getting Smith wrong; actually, I may just be reading too much into the chart--but I don't think so.))
Caputo, I think, gives reason as free a reign as he gives theology. Neither take the lead, however. Neither exclude the other; neither reign.
Is A.P. saying that philosophy is NOT in subordination to theology?
Is Tim saying that philosophy IS in subordination to theology?
Could you clarify...in brief?
Hey Benson: I am still trying to work out what I think... But I am defending, for the time being, the partnership of theology and philosophy. Tim, being the good Barthian that he is, is defending the primacy of theology.
Tim: I think relationships can be unequal and reciprocal. I am not sure that ways of life can be. It seems to dichotomize the person leading such ways of life. Now, of course, we have ways of life that partner with each other in any life of a person. And in any person one way of life may be above another... but I am not sure that we should make that the rule. For example, Chuck Gutenson is more theologian than philosopher (imo). Jerry Walls is more philosopher than theologian. In doing theology together, would Jerry have to submit to Chuck? Or, would Hegel have to submit to Pannenberg?
The difference between theology and Theology is this. Small t theology is the theology of any and all specific religions. Big T Theology is the pursuit of these theologies. So, there are theologies, but only one Theology. Big T Theology is the assumption that theologies make to engage in their practice. Religions that make truth claims, like Christianity, do engage in Theology. Working in the Christian theology of trinity and incarnation, for example, is engaging in Theology: God is trinity and is incarnate in Jesus. in defending hte partnership of philosophy and Christian theology is that philosophy engages in Theology.
ah, crap. i wrote a comment and it got deleted. here's the gyst.
Theology is the assumption of theology. There is a God about whom we can speak and who has revealed himself. But revelation does not get all that can be said about God...and so other ways of life that are not explicit theologies can engage in Theology. theologies with truth claims, like Christianity, engage in Theology. i wouldn't go the Hickian route of God being Ultimate Reality and Christianity being one understanding of UR. i would say that incarnation and Trinity are right Theology and denials of this theology is wrong.
theology only makes sense if Theology is assumed...but this does not make equal (equally blind?) all theology. it simply admits that no single theology is a perfect Theology.
Ok. Re: The consideration (measurement) of theological speech. I want to ask, can philosophical speech be about God without first being Christian? If yes, then they are partners. Can other theological speech be about God without first being Christian?
You rightly say that Christians measure their speech about God via trinitarian creeds. But the creeds are only authoritative in as much as they are Theological. If they are not about God, then they cannot be used to persuade the Buddhist. Or, they shouldn't persuade the Buddhist. Christian theology is not the bar; God is the bar. Where Christian theology is Theology then we listen...where it doesn't, we listen to another speaker. So, the bar for Christian theology is history, Scripture, creed, etc. But I think the bar for Theology is not a specific theology, but God himself. (And, since I believe Christianity to be true, I think that Christian theology is the Theological bar alot of the time.)
So, when you say that the object of measurement provides the means of measurement, I wholeheartedly agree! But I think the means of measurement goes beyond, but includes, the trinitarian creeds.
I can't provide a means of measurement of God without human conventions. I only wish to entertain the thought that philosophy is one of those conventions which can be measured against God.
In the end it is a question of revelation. What I say about God is measured not against Christian theology ultimately, but against God himself--not as he is in himself, but who he has revealed himself to be. If that revelation is only in Christian theology, then you are right. If it is in the creation--charged with grace!--then I think I am. (Of course, we are not that far apart, I don't think.)
I don't think the Kantian charge sticks. I have not come close to saying God is unknowable--but to saying God is multi-knowable. The charge would be more appropriately Hegelian. I am not trying to know God-in-himself as though God-to-us is different. But that God-to-us is multifaceted. (Interestingly, I think I have good Christological resources for thinking this way if all creation is in Christ--and the goal is for Christ to be all in all.)
But in the end, I'll be ready to worship Sunday--in part because ofthis convo.
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oddly enough, my favourite philosopher is ............. kierkegaard.
Good thoughts guys... I even followed most of them... On this one I side more closely with Tim... partly because I find his much more attainable and AP's far more abstract and less (if at all) attainable...
For what it's worth...
Cheers!
i will send a you diagram! it really is a minimal claim!
Interesting discussion.You got my synapses all excited trying to follow you.
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